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HawkPodcast 14 - dcHawk's 5 yr. Anniversary, the Early dcH Days, & Data Center Operator Challenges
HawkPodcast 14 - dcHawk's 5 yr. Anniversary, the Early dcH Days, & Data Center Operator Challenges

By Mike Netzer · 9/11/2019


In the video Mike and David open with some banter about the weather, college football, and the NFL. The transcription below begins with Mike and David discussing the challenges for data center operators.


Challenges for Data Center Operators

Mike Netzer: Yep. So last week we had part one of our four part series on just some of the different challenges people in the industry face. And last week was the end user and talking about, you've got to have a plan, and when you get punched in the mouth, you got to still be able to execute the plan. You can't bring it back to Mike Tyson enough. So today we're gonna be talking about the operator and some of the different challenges they face as far as, winning business, delivering on business once it's won. Obviously next week we talk about the consultant/broker and some of the roles they play. And then the fourth one is going to be the investment group as we've seen a lot of investment money flow into that space over the last couple of years. So in addition to that, we've got a couple of over unders, you're going to enjoy, we've got a couple of role-plays, we've got a new segment, which I will not say, but I will just surprise you with it when it comes out. And then a very special askDCH in which you will talk about, what did the founding of this company look like. So yeah, looking forward to today. So let's jump in.

David Liggitt: Love it.


Mike Netzer: Alright so first thing is, like you said the challenges that the data center operator faces. And so, we talked a little bit about this last week about from a pricing standpoint about it's a moving target and there's a lot of disruption in pricing. There's anywhere from a quarter cabinet buyer to a 20 megawatt buyer. So that's a very wide range. So let's talk through the different types of buyers and then, what an operator has to do to meet their needs.

David Liggitt: Yeah, certainly. So, when I started in the space the terminology that we used a lot at the time was: retail, colocation, and wholesale colocation. And if you're in the industry, and you're doing this work every day, you have some, I would say preconceived thoughts around what sizes of transactions or what sizes of IT infrastructure fit into those categories. It's more than a size. There's different things that these different groups have pushed providers to be. But really what I wanted to do today from a challenge standpoint is talk about as data center operator, three basically different tiers of groups and what challenges they present for the operator. And this comes from really 10 to 15 years of being in the space, seeing data center operators change what they're building, seeing them work through the challenges of what they're doing today versus where they were 3, 4, 10 years ago. The other thing I would just mention very quickly about this is, this is a game around capital deployment. How much money do we have, where are we putting that money and when do we put it in these places? And so The way data center operators did that, gosh, even 3 years ago, was much different than they're doing it today. And we'll talk a little bit about that as we go through each group. So, what I want to do is I want to break down these three groups, retail colocation from a data center operator standpoint, 0 to 250 KW, that type of range of IT infrastructure, wholesale colocation, 250 KW to 2 megawatts. And then hyperscale opportunities, which in this situation we're saying are 2 megawatts and higher. Now, some big companies would say, or hyperscale opportunities are like 20 megawatts and above, some would say they're 1 to 4 megawatts, but that's how we're going to break it up.

Mike Netzer: And so, and when you're going through this, if you would just say like, maybe a typical customer in each segment, like, Sears for example, where would they fall? So if you would.


David Liggitt: Yeah, you bet. So basically think about, we'll attack the retail colocation segment first. And I want to talk about upfront challenges before the customers are acquired and then post customer acquisition challenges. So I want to just identify one in each zone and talk about how data center operators are doing this today. And this is, really any small to medium sized business. We've also seen very large companies have network nodes that they'll place in smaller deployments across multiple markets. But traditionally these are 1 cabinet, 5, 10, 20 cabinet infrastructure deployments in different data center facilities. If you're a data center operator and you're trying to get these type of customers within your data center. One of the challenges that at least we've seen companies really face is, how much time, energy, and effort do you deploy to land some of these smaller customers when, a one cabinet customer from a sales perspective can take just as long as a 10, 20 megawatt opportunity, very different size, very different scale, et cetera. So that's one of the challenges I think a lot of data center operators face when they're trying to do... If it's a company that is a technology company but just needs one or two cabinets in this location, or if it's a retail company that has had their infrastructure within their own building and they want to get it out into a more professional environment. So that's certainly one of the challenges we've seen on the upfront perspective from a retail side of things. On the back end, I think one of the challenges when you have a thousand customers, it's really hard to understand what all their needs are and then how to grow them moving forward. One of the things that is certainly true about our spaces when you choose a data center operator to partner with, they're going to be your customer for a long time. We talked about this I think last week during the one of our segments. So you really have to choose the data center operators, a user one that you'll be with for a long time. And from an operator perspective, you've got to figure out "how can I help this business grow?" Because their probably your best customer set moving forward. So that's really it from the retail side of things. Again, the upfront challenge: "how much time do we put into these smaller customers?" And it's one of the reasons you're seeing these groups depend on, channel sales to be part of that discussion. Online platforms to be part of that discussion as well as the post customer acquisition challenge, which is really how do we get to know this wide variety of customers and how can we grow moving forward?

Mike Netzer: Yeah. So they're going to want to build a platform that can meet the needs of those wide varieties. We've seen a lot of companies promote their management system. So how quickly you can access, you can go online, you can see quickly server status, et cetera.

David Liggitt: That's a great point. The data center operator community has spent a lot of time to figure out, number 1, how can we make it easier for our customers to buy? Which is not, it's not uncommon. I mean, you see this in other industries as well. It's just really hard to do in the infrastructure space when it's not cloud, when it's colocation. But I think they're really focused on that. And especially with smaller users because there are so many, how do we take that process, make it more efficient and do the things that we need to do to grow their businesses the way they need to.


David Liggitt: Okay, so let's move on to the wholesale side of things. So from a size standpoint, what I'm suggesting is that this category is really 250 KW to 2 megawatts. I get it, right now, some people might say it's bigger than that. Some people might say it's smaller, but this is really what we've seen as far as challenges for data center operators chasing these types of opportunities. One, on the upfront challenges is these opportunities have somewhat changed over the last five years. So one of the reasons I was talking about from a demand perspective, we were talking about this yesterday, but if you look at data center transactional opportunities on kind of a line with the small here and the, and the biggest here where that took place over the last I would say five years was really in this range. And what's happened is the bigger transactions have grown. So the size has gotten bigger and these in the middle have kind of pushed, I think pushed the demand to smaller and bigger. So a traditional 1 megawatt deal 5 years ago might now be 500 KW. And part of that is feeding some of these bigger opportunities that are going to these, Northern Virginia, Chicago, Dallas, Phoenix, Northern California, European markets as well. So I think that's a lot of the growth that we've seen. So one of the challenges is like when you have an enterprise user with great credit that has a 1 megawatt opportunity we've really seen the pricing get very aggressive. And people really want those types of opportunities within their data center facility portfolio because they're so unique today. So that's been one of the biggest deals is like finding the opportunities. Where are they, how they change and how can we win them. On the post customer acquisition challenge for this, in my opinion, there's two. One is how do we evolve from a service perspective to continue to meet the needs of the customer. One of the things that people don't realize for the data center operator is that their customers are changing constantly. I mean they're acquiring other companies, they're utilizing new technologies, they're phasing out old hardware. I mean, there's just all these things that are happening that the data center operator who provided the infrastructure a year ago, now the need is different. And so their challenge is how do we really evolve and move forward to create something that the end user would want on a long term basis. And the other thing that we're starting to see is, these companies start to renew their infrastructure and that certainly has changed. I think their approach to the market has changed because of the way technology has been modified over the last number of years and their businesses have changed as well. So those are some of the post customer acquisition challenges that wholesale data center operators have. Companies that are really trying to go after those enterprise user deals between 250 KW and 2 megawatts.


David Liggitt: And then when you think about the hyperscale side of things, again from a size perspective, 2 megawatts and larger. This has been part of the business that has really changed the data center industry over the last 3 years. And it's one that actually, when we started five years ago, I certainly didn't anticipate how much growth would come from these companies. I think we all could make the assumptive bet that companies would be growing. And growing in larger scale, but not to the scale that they have grown. And so some of the things that we have seen the data center operator community be challenged with from a hyperscale standpoint is really understanding the end user. In my opinion, there's 3 things that the hyperscale user has pursued over the last three years from a needs perspective. One is timing, how quickly can the infrastructure be delivered? That's highly valuable. Two is flexibility. So how flexible is the solution and how flexible are the lease terms and deal terms around the agreement. And the third thing is scalability. So how do they actually grow on a long term perspective. But in my opinion, there's always like one or two issues that caused those opportunities to end up in one market versus the other with one provider or another provider. And I think if I'm the data center operator that's going after those opportunities, one of my biggest challenges is how do I understand what those one or two things are? Because those are the things that really change where these things go and they're such big opportunities that you've got to know, what those things are.

Mike Netzer: Yeah and I think one of the things we've talked about is the guessing game that produces. And so, we've seen companies that said, we're going to sit on land until we... best case scenario: Sign a deal for a company that says we'll come in and partner with you, build the building, we're going to be the sole tenant in it, etc. Some companies built like a powered shell and said, we can deploy a lot quicker, but there's a capital cost there. And then some say, we're going to put some additional infrastructure inside the building and really try and anticipate the needs of the buyer. And so that's a very difficult place for a company to be in because it's capital allocation and operational constraints.

David Liggitt: And you're taking bets on, where you think people are going to go. And these are not small, these are huge opportunities. And in my opinion I think the data center operator community has gotten this a lot more right than they've gotten it wrong. They've certainly invested in areas where these companies want to go. And you've seen that. That's one of the reasons that the Northern Virginia multi-tenant data center market is up over, a thousand megawatts of power. It's the reason that, areas like Phoenix has so much planned power and that's planned. So that's not being built today. But that's providers that are positioning themselves to say, Hey, when the need comes here, we're ready. We've got the infrastructure ready, we've got the fiber ready, we're ready to go. And another challenge that they have on the upfront side is competing against basically customer self-performance. So all the customers, they're doing the large opportunities with, now these are customers that have done this themselves, but value the capital of the data center operator, their ability to build it and deliver it quickly. All those things that the desktop operator provides them, that's what they value. So one of the post acquisition customer acquisition challenges for operators when it comes to deals like this really has to do with delivery. And the question is, can you meet the timelines that these large customers have? And so it's one of the big reasons we've seen the data center operator community focus on supply chain efficiency. And, they've done a great job at being able to go, "not only can we build this, but we can build it in the timeline that's needed for these companies." And in my opinion, they've shown that they can probably build it faster than the companies can themselves. And that's been a big value add from a data center operator perspective. So those are my, challenges. Listen, if you're an operator that falls into one of these categories, there's other challenges as well. But I think these are very fluid to where the market is today. And it'd be interesting to see how those play out in the future.


Mike Netzer: Yeah, great thoughts David, as usual, we'll put these in a blog, we'll put them in a nice, easily digestible format, shareable, et cetera. So those will be in the show notes. Thank you very much David. Okay, now we've got some center industry over/under, so quickly we'll give you the category. We'll give you the over under, we'll give you the metric, the line, you tell me over or under. Okay, so one of the things we've seen is, a shift of focus, let's call it towards non North American markets. And so if you look at, this is somewhat ballpark but if you look at the top publicly traded REITs, they've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% to 80% of their global footprint is in North America. But again, obviously wanting to be where their customers are, a lot of them are making moves in Europe. So you look at like QTS bought those two sites in the Amsterdam market. And so they're looking to move or to grow their European footprint. So here's the over/under: Is if we say that today again, some subset of publicly traded REITs have 75% of their global footprint in North America. Fast forward 5 years, the over/under, is that ratio over or under 67%?

David Liggitt: I'm going to go under.

Mike Netzer: You're going to take the under. And tell us a little bit about why.

David Liggitt: So certainly North America has been the most mature data center market. There's a number of reasons for that. But we're seeing significant growth in the European markets as well as things in markets in Asia, et cetera. And so as those markets become more mature, I mean that's where some of the pain is for larger customers. And so that's why– you mentioned one of the companies, there's, probably 4 or 5 more that have really focused their efforts on growing in those markets over the next, 2 to 4 years. So I don't think it's an indictment on things in the US slowing down. I think it really shows that some of the same services and business opportunities that are happening in the US are going to be happening in Europe as well. And I would say Europe is traditionally a couple of years behind the US and then other markets are maybe 3 or 4 years behind the US so I just think that's where you're going to see a lot of activity in the next few years. And so I think you'll see those data center operators really look to provide a more diverse portfolio from a geographic perspective. And what it comes down to is that this is a global business. If you want to serve your customers well they've got challenges not only in the US but in other places as well.

Mike Netzer: Great. So you're not saying that necessarily construction is going to slow in North America, but that European and APAC growth is going to certainly outpace it to some extent.


Mike Netzer: Alright, next one. So we were talking to data center operator in the last month and kind of talked about, maybe we've overbuilt some of these tier 4 type facilities and have really jumped through a lot of hoops and invested a lot of money to get a tier 4 rating or a tier 3+ rating. And so if you're going to build a new data center today, and it's in the most generic way where you try and attack all 3 segments, you just talked about: retail, wholesale, hyperscale, you're building the most flexible, you can. Call it a redundancy rating, and so you have N+1, 2N, 2N+1, 2N+2, that you'd say– here's the over under, you're going to build a data center today, over/under of 1.5N of redundancy. Where are you building and why?

David Liggitt: I would go under and I'd say N+1 at the UPS, at the generator level, both on the electrical side and the mechanical side. And I think that's what you're seeing across the board. I think generally the market's gotten comfortable with that. Listen, there's some customers that, have to have 2N redundancy based off of compliance standards, et cetera. There's some that, could do more N type redundancy for this certain applications that they're working with. But at the end of the day, I think N+1 is where you want to be. And I think, in any market that you see, it's one thing on the pricing perspective too, I'll just mention this. We certainly have seen pricing become more compressed over the last 10 years in this space, but it's really important to remember that like, what's being built today is not the same as being built, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago. And so especially on some of the build to suits that are out there, I mean these are very customized, some are stripped down to very sophisticated users that are doing things with these facilities that most of the general data center user public can't do. And so some of the pricing around that is different because of those needs. So just again it's really important to remember what you're building has to be factored in when looking at pricing. But I think N+1 is the standard.


Mike Netzer: Okay, great thoughts. Alright, next we have a new segment. We're calling it hyperscale corner until we come up with a better name or the megawatt segment or the Meg seg. We're going to coin it, which may be the Meg seg.

Mike Netzer: So, again a ton of the industry is really focused on this hyperscale user. And we talk about just the amount of attention, and really leasing that they do. So I went back and looked at the interview you did with Tag Greason who is QTS's Chief Hyperscale Officer. So if anybody knows about this stuff it's him. So he had a couple of thoughts of, there's really 4 to 5 buyers that could take down 20, 30, 40 megawatts at a time, right? We know who they are and, but he said, they're really focused on a list of 30 customers with who they would define as hyperscale and who would say they may buy 1-3 megawatts at a time and then over a period of several years become a 15, 16, 18 megawatt customer and really would kind of fall into that hyperscale bucket. And he talked about the different things that they need, scale, speed of delivery, the right economics, the right location. So, if you would just talk about, who are those, companies in that 6 to 30 range who are buying 1 to 2 megawatts at a time, over a number of years. What are their characteristics? How are they buying? What types of things are they considering when looking for a colocation partner?

David Liggitt: Yeah, that's good. I mean, they've got some of the same characteristics that really big buyers would have, but they're, I would say on a smaller level. So I think they value flexibility for sure. They value the ability to customize the solution and make the solution work for them. Let me go back to the flexibility thing, I think they value contract flexibility, I mean that's the hardest thing that a lot of these companies themselves as well as, data center operators have to work through is the flexibility around contracting and what that really looks like. And then I think it's typically like smaller cloud providers or technology companies that still have, a pretty significant technology platform. But I think they have a strategy in their head, these users have a strategy in their head and they're wanting to make sure that, the partners that they partner with can help them achieve this strategy. Some of that is from a global standpoint like I'm in the US today, but can I grow globally? And these companies have to make a decision, not just the best decision that would meet their needs today, but the anticipated needs of tomorrow and am I with someone that can help me meet both? And that's where I think these companies focus.

Mike Netzer: Okay. So we're going to continue this segment as a each week trying to take a different cut at this hyperscale club and really try and understand them a little better and kind of share the things we've learned with over the year.

David Liggitt: And we should, it's such a big part of the industry, so it makes a lot of sense.


Mike Netzer: Awesome. All right. For this last segment, it's a special ask DCH. So, as we mentioned, the top, this is our fifth anniversary. And more specifically your fifth anniversary because five years ago today there was how many employees? One. Alright so I just want to talk through, what did that look like? And even before that, how did you come to the point of starting a company talk about some of the business principles or guiding principles you've learned and have tried to infuse in the company over the years. a couple of the things that you've seen changes in the market and how it's covered over the last five years and then what you see going forward. So talk a little bit about, what did August 27th, 2014 look like for David Liggitt?

David Liggitt: Yes. Well, first of all, my third grader was starting school that day, which was funny cause we talked about how, it was a big first day for both of us. So if I like think about that day, you know the unknown can be scary, but it can also be exciting. And so when you start a company, anybody starts a company, and it doesn't matter if it's like a technology company or a retail store or whatever, but I think you've gotta be okay with failing. And you gotta be okay with having an idea and standing by it and going, "Hey, this my idea, and if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And I'm the, I'm the person that it falls back on." And so the day really marks something for me as far as just getting comfortable with that. They say when you start a business, you get to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And so that's one of the things that this process has done for me. It has just been awesome to, recognize that you swing the bat and you hit the ball and you swing and you miss. But anyway, yeah, it was just me day one, we had a group that was helping us from a development perspective and then we built our team around that. But yeah, I mean, literally a business plan, me, the capital needed to do it, and my kind of rough idea of what our website would look like and then it was day one and the team that, we met with, the basic idea was, "Hey, I'm bringing my best you bring yours and let's get after it." And somehow we're here five years later.

“They say when you start a business, you get to get comfortable with the uncomfortable.”
-David Liggitt, CEO datacenterHawk

Mike Netzer: Here we are. And growing. That's awesome. So talk about, some of the things that you've used as just kind of guiding principles just from either a business/life standpoint. For us and specifically for you, those are pretty well married. So just talk about, what did that look like for you?

David Liggitt: Yeah, you bet. I think the first thing, I mean, I've got, things that resonate in my head, but I mean, I think the first thing for me is just being someone that can operate with humility and learning how to dial down the inner pride. There's a lot of people that are like, "Hey, we're humble or we want to pursue this or that." But actually doing it as a different process. I mean, it's a day to day process. And the cool thing about the business world is it can slap you around a little bit. It can slap you around a lot. And so I think for me, there's been things that we've done that we've been successful. There's been things that we've done that we failed at, and that's just always a good guide for me to remember that we're just doing our best every day. One of the things that I've tried to do when we hire people here is we just don't tolerate ego and and it's all stuff that we all have. And so what's our belief system that's going to either put us up on a pedestal or others up on a pedestal. And so that's what I've tried to do and, certainly recognize that I fail and have to own my part and go back. And I think I've probably asked for forgiveness at some point from everybody on this team multiple times just for things. But I think just trying to have an organization that's based around humility is something that I've wanted to do. We have to work hard, and we're five years in and we're still hustling, and everybody wants to show how great their thing is. Everybody wants to promote how awesome their organization is or whatever is, and how they're killing it. And the reality is like every day you have to show up and get after it. And when you start something, you get to be the head guy. You also get to be the low guy on the totem pole. And so that's something that has been great, but we gotta be hungry and get after it. We also have to have people that like work well with one another. And I think that's been something that's been a big part for me is just people that can interact well, that are smart, not just from a general task perspective and what they do, but also from just a people side of things. And then, we talked about football season starting, but I love the idea of, in order for a football play to work successfully, there are a thousand things that have to go well. And you only see the guy that runs for the touchdown, but you don't see the, block that the third line manmade. After he cleared the line of scrimmage and got to the linebackers, you don't see all the things that it takes place to do. So there's all these little victories you have to have to get to a bigger victory. And that's something that I've recognized when you do something like this. The macro vision is huge, right? We are trying from a data center perspective to change the way people search and get information in the space so they can make better decisions. That's what we set out to do. I was in a situation before where it was very hard to do that. So I said, "Hey, let's try and make this easier for people." And it just takes a thousand little victories to get to the big victories that you're trying to achieve. So I think those are some of the things that have guided me. I've always wanted our business and our company to be a place that people like to come to work. So we do a lot of fun stuff. We invest time and somethings that we're not necessarily developing code at that moment or researching what's happening in Chicago or whatever it is. I mean, we're focused on team building to make sure that people actually enjoy being at work. You work with people as much as you spend time with your family. So generally like I want people around here that we like to be around and enjoy being around. And so, those are some things that have guided me.

“Everybody wants to promote how awesome their organization is or whatever is, and how they're killing it. And the reality is like every day you have to show up and get after it. And when you start something, you get to be the head guy. You also get to be the low guy on the totem pole."
-David Liggitt, CEO datacenterHawk

Mike Netzer: Yeah, that's really cool to hear. Kind of that background and guiding principles. Again, as an employee of datacenterHawk, it's exciting to be on the journey with you and excited for many more years. Alright. So, strictly from a business standpoint, let's talk about where the data center information market was five years ago versus where you think it is today. And again, that's one of the challenges we're trying to solve. So we're a little bit biased there, but just talk about the changes you've seen over the last five years.

David Liggitt: Yeah, sure. One of the things we fight for every day is mineset. We're trying to help people think the same way that we do. And what I mean by that is, so five years ago is was very confusing. I mean, people would compare numbers one to another, they would hear something and try to understand what's happening. And so part of it is you're trying to reduce the confusion in a way that the market can handle. And so, a lot of times we spend, and as a just perfect example, how the market thinks about power. And If you're in the commercial real estate space and you're listening to this traditionally, you think about real estate in the, idea from a square footage perspective. But this is a totally different, metric that we're tracking from a power side of things. Now all that goes into square footage, all of that goes into real estate. But how we track it is very different. So I would say we certainly have made, I think as an industry we have definitely improved. And I'm certainly proud that we've been a part of that. I'm certainly not suggesting we're the only ones, but I think we've worked really hard to help people think a certain way so that they can make decisions faster. And all of this goes back to the fact that every single human participates in our industry. I mean, in some form or fashion. I mean, this is the industry that is supporting what's happening, on a day to day basis from a business standpoint, from a family at home perspective, from this podcast and what we're doing. This is all technology and all of this goes back somewhere to a data center facility. And so that's what we're trying to help, from a business standpoint, that industry works smoother. I think one of the challenges was just the confusion in the industry and hopefully we've done some things to make that better.


Mike Netzer: Okay. So looking forward, where do you see the market going and not necessarily from a growth standpoint, but just from the characteristics of the market. So we talk about some of the differences between the data center market and like the office leasing market as far as, what percentage of deals are brokerd for example. But that's a very specific thing. But just talk generally about, what do you see the next five years holding? If you fast forward five years, where are we just from an information standpoint, from the nature of the market standpoint.

David Liggitt: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think one of the things that quickly comes to mind is that the data center user is becoming more mature, they're getting smarter. Their infrastructure plans are getting more complex. And so I think that's going to push a lot of growth opportunities for data center operators, consultants, investors in the space. And a great example of that was four years ago, we talked about this in the hyperscale corner, which I think was the name of the segment.

Mike Netzer: The meg seg. Let's call it by its name.

David Liggitt: Meg seg. Excuse me. But that that part of the industry didn't exist like that four or five years ago. So, you think that you go, gosh, well in four or five years, the market can change like that. So I think as the user gets more mature, they're going to push the operators to do different things. And one of the biggest things I think that's coming is, is the re-architecturing of data center user networks and how important that is to the underlying business efficiency of these companies. And so that's why you hear a lot about edge computing. You hear a lot about how some of these technologies will feed into that. I just think at the end of the day, the maturities of the user is pushing all of that. And how these companies want to utilize their infrastructure to make their business more efficient. So I think that's what it's going to center around as that user gets more mature, what are their needs and how can the greater industry help them with their needs? And in that there's opportunities for everybody in the space. There's an opportunity for the provider community to grow their portfolios to meet those needs. There's opportunities for the users to have a more efficient IT infrastructure that will drive better business. There's opportunity for investors, right? We've talked about there's a lot of capital interested in the data center space today, whereas four or five years ago, they weren't, and so that's, that's an opportunity. So I think, if I summed it up, I would say the future is bright for the space. And people are going to win and win big if they keep listening to what the end user wants and figure out ways to serve them.

Mike Netzer: Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing your thoughts on where you've been, and what the last five years looked like again. We're all excited for datacenterHawk to continue to move and grow and, and track this market. So again, special ask DCH segment today.

David Liggitt: Yeah, you bet. And so I just kind of in closing want to thank all that had been involved, I know we said at the beginning, but I'm going to say at the end. We have just some incredible customers that we get to serve and so certainly thankful for them and how they've helped shape what we're doing today. And first of all, once again, thank you. If you enjoy our content, like it, share it, comment on it, we do ask DCH. So, you can certainly see, suggest, comments and things like that to us, cause we would love to make sure that we get to that. But again, a special HawkPodcast number 14, on this fifth anniversary of data center Hawk. Thank you all for listening and we'll catch you on the next one.

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